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ShedTheShame
Welcome, foxbee— I’m so sorry to hear about the situation with your friend’s mother.
Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon for people with hoarding issues to spend money on storage fees and ultimately end up homeless.
I’m also afraid the notions you have of public intervention are far too proactive for how hoarding disorder is currently understood and addressed
The storage business has not only grown like crazy but has managed to be recession-proof. The co-founder of Public Storage and his children are all billionaires.
https://www.forbes.com/profile/b-wayne-hughes/#17ca21e62b07 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.forbes.com/profile/b-wayne-hughes/#17ca21e62b07 From
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/homeless-and-hoarding/384036/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/homeless-and-hoarding/384036/ Quote:Michael Stoops, director of community organizing for the National Coalition for the Homeless, says he’s certainly noticed a complex relationship with “stuff” in his four decades serving the homeless in Washington, D.C.
He says he’s known homeless folks to save their money to pay for a storage unit filled with possessions from a time before they were living on the streets. “Their goal in life is to survive on a day-to-day basis,” he says. “They still have hopes and dreams for the future, in that they can get back to their former life or they can start a new life.”
Really wish I had an answer for you. All I can tell you is that until the individual acknowledges they have a problem and decides they want to change — there really isn’t much you can do in terms of long-term change.
Well-intentioned crisis intervention often backfires with the individual becoming resentful, losing trust, and filling up the space again
Can you think of any way to get your friend’s mother to acknowledge she has a problem?You might find this video helpful. It’s quite long, but you can fast forward to 1:48:00where he discusses defensiveness and a way to create motivation to change https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke950ThjLLEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke950ThjLLE” class=”bbcode_url”> Good luck,
StS
chaosqueen
Forgive me, I am not from the UK so I am not sure about this pension. Is it a pension or benefits? If it is a pension wouldn’t she be the only one who gets to decide how to spend it? Do you think she would get rid of the storage if she had no money left to pay it?
squirrelnutkin
Care Act 2014 means local authorities/councils have made provision to help hoarders. You need to look at your local council’s website under titles such as “adult safeguarding” “self-neglect”.
Any services would address condition of flat.
There is power of attorney but the lady sounds as though she is capable of making decisions, even if they don’t appear “good” decisions.
Even if your friend got power of attorney to control the lady’s financial affairs, the attorney has to work as far as possible within the lady’s wishes.
Might help to get stranger/neutral third party to go through contents of storage (and flat) with the lady. Having family members do it is too volatile. Family help makes person feel uncomfortable, ashamed, criticised so this manifests as “stubbornness” even though it’s probably pain and fear. Someone gentle and kind that lady can build a rapport with.
Might help to do the flat first, then if lady’s mindset changes, the contents of storage unit won’t “fit” anymore – if flat becomes nice, clean, bright place then how she sees storage locker contents might alter.
Given lady’s age, a trip (no pressure) to alternative accommodation might help. A retirement village or complex with bright airy flats etc would contrast with present living conditions so might attract her.
Storage unit has become such a flashpoint that I would take attention off that and work on actual living environment.
Oddsocks
chaosqueen wrote:
Forgive me, I am not from the UK so I am not sure about this pension. Is it a pension or benefits? If it is a pension wouldn’t she be the only one who gets to decide how to spend it?Do you think she would get rid of the storage if she had no money left to pay it?
It will be the state pension for older people. You are right- there are no controls on what its used for. Its not a lot to live on, so using any of it for storage has an impact on everyday spending.To start with your questions, the DWP and self storage company have no responsibility at all in this situation. The issues are the same as clutter in the home, so the info and tactics about that is relevant, but of course the huge difference is the cost. All her reactions fit with being a hoarder.
Its hugely frustrating for friends/family when the hoarder doesnt want to change. Have a look at the ‘family and friends’ section on this site?
Squirelnutkin clearly has relevant knowledge about what a Council can provide. As said, check on their website? It would be contacting their adult social services. BUT this would need careful thought tho as her mother might be understandably furious. They probably wouldnt take her on as she can do all the everyday things like bathing, eating etc. But also if her flat is safe- you have mentioned that its clean? Are there things she might trip over? If so, is there the option of rearranging things to make it a bit safer? May not be.
The other route would be to the GP, if she agreed to. There might be free NHS counselling available (often a long wait and then a few sessions tho). Unfortunately, if she doesnt acknowledge that she has a problem then counselling may not get very far.
Sorry that its so frustrating for your friend, and how kind of you to post her about her mum.
foxbee
ShedTheShame: thank you for such a warm welcome. Yes I’m aware of just how profitable the storage business is for owners and shareholders- I have seen many articles in the general press (not even when directly researching this issue) regarding the exponential growth in this area and especially within the last few years, including actively seeing this come to fruition as I live in London, UK and know of a number of places where storage units have sprung up, where previously this land was used for something entirely unrelated. Land in London is obviously enormously and unbelievably expensive so unfortunately it doesn’t surprise me that those at the top of this game are billionaires. It’s like having a betting shop situated next door to the residence of a gambler (more on this in the next post)- what better circumstances could you ask for from a business perspective?! In terms of one not being able to change until they truly want to, I fully understand this concept, it is the same with addicts: until they have reached THEIR rock bottom there is nothing you can do: you can throw all the help in the world at the individual and be alarmed at the severity of their situation, but until they want to change, it is pointless. I recall a fantastic line I read about this which I can’t remember verbatim so will have to paraphrase, “
people make the change (e.g. go to rehab) when the pain of continuing on as they are becomes greater than the pain of changing it“. I have actually just realised that in the youtube link you kindly provided, he states the same thing (just in inversion) around the 1:46:00 mark, “ people don’t change because the costs of changing outweigh the benefits of changing, at least in their mind“. Re: your line in bold and the youtube video from 1:48:00 onwards about ‘decreasing the discrepancy’ between both things, the thing is, a) what he says doesn’t seem to be the case/working here as my friend does regularly visit her flat, yet it becomes worse, not better and b) she actually does acknowledge she has a problem, but even that has become problematic itself as she flips between “this cannot go on any longer I need to stop it immediately, you must help me” to “I like all my things, I will not part with anything, this is none of your business, leave me alone and mind your own business.” She is obviously in an internal war, the problem is the latter is winning and to put it bluntly the situation is now at crisis point. In her 80’s and on a state pension.
Thirty. Thousand. Pounds. Sterling.chaosqueen: apologies for my oversight, as this board url ends .co.uk I assumed it was mostly frequented by British visitors! Thank you for your reply, yes as Oddsocks confirmed: it is the state pension so it appears she can use it however she pleases and as Oddsocks noted ‘
it is not a lot to live on, so using any of it for storage has an impact on everyday spending‘. Talking of which: what everyday spending? Chance would be a fine thing! She barely buys food. I am not exaggerating, I am being serious. I wish I could post a photo of the inside of her fridge. My friend swoops in, whisks her off and ‘feeds her up’ whenever he can. And by goodness does she eat for Britain, having deprived herself for so long. In regards to your question chaosqueen, of ALL the huge number of things I and my friend have considered and continue to, I think that one has been overlooked. It is an excellent question that unfortunately I have no answer to, perhaps because there is little chance of it happening with her continuing to receive the state pension. squirrelnutkin: Thank you for your reply, I will address each point chronologically instead of quoting, to try to save space and minimise post length.
I had thought in advance of my original post that someone might bring up the Care Act 2014. I am aware of this yet as I understand it she is not covered by either of the two areas. I believe she is, but for their purposes i.e. box-ticking, I believe by their technicalities she would fall outside of both areas, hence my opening post, as I have even exhausted this option in past research.
Yes regarding her flat, I believe they would just deem it cluttered but take no further action (unsurprising considering they no doubt have a lot of evaluations to do of old people in various serious circumstances, with limited time and funds) as they have no idea about the storage situation.
Power of attorney has been considered by my friend and I too, but alas your reading of the situation is correct.
Stranger/neutral party section: alas this is a no too, for two reasons. Firstly, she has burnt through every single person imaginable who has ‘helped’ her in the past. Each and every one (and by goodness how so very fortunate she is to have so many people to call on, at her age, who not only live close to her, but were also willing to help!) who was drafted in to ‘help’ realised pretty soon that this was going nowhere fast. She has wasted multiple days of many, many family and friends who agreed to help and are all very busy people who on some occasions used their only days off to assist her, only to realise they were not there to help her declutter/clear out at all, but merely to corroborate with her and become a fellow hoarding partner as she wanders around moving boxes around, swapping x in box 1 for y in box 2, then puts it all back again and declares the day to be a success.
She will not allow anyone to touch anything and will not allow anything to leave her storage units: nothing has ever been thrown away/donated to charity/taken to the tip by ANY of these many different people, on many different occasions. Secondly, the reason why she won’t let anyone apart from family and friends near her units and indeed her flat is because she has serious trust issues: this is nothing to do with hoarding: she has always been a control freak so you can only imagine the situation when you add this character + hoarding together.
Trip to alternative accommodation: I have thought of this too, she simply has no interest in it and unfortunately would run a mile from any suggestion of it. Her fear of losing control largely dictates the whole way she has and does live her life, not just in regards to storage and hoarding.
Switching attention from storage units to actual living environment: another excellent suggestion but alas this itself is getting worse too week by week. You do not want to hear what my friend has had to go through simply trying to throw away an old box or plastic bag. To no avail.
Thank you so much for your thoughts and suggestions squirrelnutkin: I’m aware how negative my reply sounds as each suggestion appears to be a ‘no’, so I just wanted to quickly say that I hope you please, please do not take it personally like a rebuff; quite the opposite; I really appreciate the amount of thought, analysis and number of ideas you have provided, I am just so sorry that I cannot see a way forward with any. They are ALL very much appreciated.
I better not make this post itself any longer so I hope it is ok (with the board mods/admin) if I continue my reply to the other members in the next post.
Oddsocks: thank you very much for replying to my three questions in one fell swoop. As my opening post states, the very reason I posted was because I simply could find absolutely no information about this specific issue- elderly hoarder spending fortune on self-storage- anywhere.
In my post just before this, please see the last line of the opening paragraph. The likes of this news item from today is exactly the likes of what I’m referring to:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49175515 ‘
failed to put effective safeguards in place to “prevent consumers suffering gambling harm”…. But the firm failed to carry out “social responsibility interactions…..It said Coral “did not ask the customer to evidence their source of funds and could not provide evidence of any social responsibility interactions being carried out.”‘ Regardless of the type of company taking money from clients- be it a gambling company, a storage unit company, a local club taking high monthly membership payments etc- is there any code of conduct that
ALL businessesare expected/legally required to follow, in order to trade? From the quoted section from the article above, it would appear so? ‘
Failing to carry out social responsibility interactions‘? Not asking the customer ‘ to evidence their source of funds and (could) not provid(ing) evidence of any social responsibility interactions being carried out‘? When the client is an elderly woman? On a state pension? who has paid close to Thirty. Thousand. Pounds. Sterling.? Surely there is a GENERAL (nothing to do with storage companies) code of conduct that any business must follow, as discussed in the news article? Re: contacting adult social services, I and my friend have considered this many a time too. But as with squirrelnutkin, you are correct in your assumption of it making her furious. Whatever reaction you are imagining, times it by 10, minimum. I will do my absolute best to hold back here and simply say that this woman is ‘a difficult character’, to say the absolute least. Always has been. Ain’t nothing going to change that in her 80’s. Now serious hoarding is thrown into the mix, refusing to part with everything from tatty boxes to old gas heaters? Wish my friend strength(!)
Regarding your next section, if I may quickly quote you for ease of reading ‘
They probably wouldnt take her on as she can do all the everyday things like bathing, eating etc. But also if her flat is safe- you have mentioned that its clean? Are there things she might trip over? If so, is there the option of rearranging things to make it a bit safer? May not be.’ This is a really interesting point and one I have pondered many times, as I believe the jury is out on whether this would be deemed safe or not. I would love to post a photo- you would then understand why answering this in words is difficult. GP: my friend has considered this and raised it with her a number of times, yet again we are back to the trust issue. She doesn’t trust doctors, she doesn’t want their advice, she knows best, etc: you probably get the picture. She has an easily fixable ailment that needs attention however (you would not believe the story behind this- it could and should have been sorted out years ago, in a matter of weeks- here we are years later and she wonders why it’s still a problem) and my friend’s idea is to attend the GP appointment with her for this issue, then raise the storage units/hoarding situation to the GP there and then while present in the appointment.
As with squirrelnutkin above, I am aware of how negative to you my response has sounded so can only ask that you please, please do not take it personally as I am enormously grateful on behalf of my friend for the thought and time you have put into reading such a long opening post and for all the varied advice and ideas you have provided in your reply. It is simply such a shame that most have been considered (simply due to the length of time this has been going on), hence my reaching out to this board in desperation.
Oddsocks wrote:Sorry that its so frustrating for your friend, and how kind of you to post her about her mum.
And to end on a lighter note: this could very well be why the gentleman of the mother in question has rather more than just friendly feelings towards me. I have discussed this issue- that has now reached beyond-crisis point- with him in great depth for hours and hours, days and days, every week, every month, for years. Quite simply: I will not give up. I will keep the board updated should any marriage proposal occur.
foxbee wrote:
this woman is ‘a difficult character’, to say the absolute least…. she will not allow anyone to touch anything and will not allow anything to leave her storage units: nothing has ever been thrown away/donated to charity/taken to the tip…. the reason why she won’t let anyone apart from family and friends near her units and indeed her flat is because she has serious trust issues: this is nothing to do with hoarding: she has always been a control freak…. she doesn’t trust doctors, she doesn’t want their advice, she knows best…. my friend’s idea is to attend the GP appointment with her for this issue, then raise the storage units/hoarding situation to the GP there and then while present in the appointment.
foxbee, I just attended a conference on OCD and hoarding disorder. I learned about Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorderwhich is marked by: - Preoccupation with order, details, rules
Self-limiting perfectionism
Excessive devotion to work and productivity
Inflexibility about morality and ethics
Inability to discard worn-out or worthless items
Reluctance to delegate tasks
Miserliness toward self and others
Rigidity and stubbornness
Indecision (fear of making wrong choice)
Difficulty with change
Excessively rule-bound; routines
Difficulty relating to and sharing emotions
Anger outbursts when sense of control is threatened
Procrastination
Does your friend’s mother fit this description???
No worries. I think most people who come here are from the UK. Although currently I think half of the active posters are not. We simply ask when we don’t understand Playing devil’s advocate here. How should the storage company know she is on a state pension? She could be well off and need a place to store her large amount of antics?
If you book a holiday, how much would you appreciate having to proof you are well enough off to afford it?
I am not suggesting to starve her, I am just wondering does she probably count on your friend making sure she has enough food?
In my area, of what I heard, storage can be quite different in price. If you want a storage unit downtown you will be paying a lot more than for storage 20 miles outside the city. If you can not fix the problem, maybe you can reduce the cost of it?
We definitely want to hear about a marriage proposal!
Absolutely fine to say anything you like! I’m so sorry to be sharing bad news. I do understand you wanting to find information specific to elderly person paying lots for storage, so it may be frustrating. The general information about hoarding behaviour applies however. Its all too familiar.
Unfortunately, that article is specific to gambling, as there is
lawabout it.’ The Gambling Commission was set up under the Gambling Act 2005 to regulate commercial gambling in Great Britain in partnership with licensing authorities.’ I absolutley agree that there should be some protection more broadly, but there just isnt.
There are only things about individuals.
The only time that action can be taken against someone’s will is sectioning under the Mental Health Act, which requires a serious risk to health, such as being seriously suicidal. I’m not a psychiatrist, but I really don’t think she’d not expect her to qualify.Someone else more expert than me talked about lack of capacity.
I can see how worrying it is that she’s not eating enough. It should be part of everyday spending, but may not be.
(Other everyday things are like council tax and water rates? Plus fuel bills, though I suspect she will be minimising that.)
Its the difficulty of a situation where someone is clearly not looking after themselves properly but is unwilling to change, or sometimes doesnt even see it as a problem. Its so hard to just watch it happen. You can try to make it clear to them that its a problem they should act on, but you cant make them change. Just like with some heavy drinkers or smokers. Unfortunately, once someone is in there 80s they are less likely to change.
The ‘may not be’ about making things safer comes from an understanding that sometimes there is just too much stuff. You should see my flat!! Cant even get through the door of one room!
GP: I’d suggest caution about mentioning the hoarding out of the blue as it could make her very angry? Understandably so- she could feel tricked or cornered? Given how little trust she has in doctors its not going to be a relaxed situation.
Pleased that there is a lighter side of things too!
She might be eligible for an additional benefit called Pension Credit? If she has a weekly income less than about £168 she may be eligible for Pension Credit which may ‘top up’ her income to that amount. The State pension is £129.20.So if that’s her only income that might be an extra £38.55. She would also not need to pay for her TV licence when they start charging next year.
Info:
http://www.gov.uk/pension-credit But I’m being cautious as its all quite complicated! More info:
Citizens Advice,
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ search Pension Credit.Government site:
http://www.gov.uk/pension-credit more info and apply over the phone (see below), or
someone else can may be able to do it for her(but in her presence). They do also do print forms if asked.
Pension Credit claim line
Telephone: 0800 99 1234 Its probably very busy.
(The rest of this is optional info- its got confusing for me!)
However, there will be quite of lot of questions. If your friend or her mother can cope with online information, it could be worth checking the calculator on the website which shows all the questions.
https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit-calculator However, I don’t expect her to be able to use the internet, or cope with what will be a complicated form.
If someone does it on her behalf, such as your friend, they will need to know if she has income apart from her State Pension and how much her savings are.
If she doesnt want to tell that to your friend,she can use that claim line or go somewhere like a Citizens Advice bureau (but they are v v busy) or an AgeUK office which does benefit advice who can fill it in for her.
So its quite a bit of paperwork, but could be really worth it?
ShedTheShame: Thank you for your reply. Oh yes, without doubt she has OCD. Prime example of nearly every single point in your list. Perhaps I should have mentioned that at some point earlier as my friend and I have known about this for years. The thing is, as I said before she is one hell of a character, so the OCD is sort of the least of one’s worries. She is and has always been very stubborn and has always insisted on doing everything her own way, throughout her whole life, even when it causes detriment to her and when listening to someone else’s advice would have been FAR better. There are countless example of this and nothing will change it. The OCD on it’s own- although it most certainly has caused some issues in the past, a few of which were quite major- was not too much of an issue. This is hard to explain as obviously it does cause issues and on a daily basis to boot but it’s just sort of ‘her’- it’s her character day in day out- so what can you do about it? You just accept that that particular person is the way they are and does things the way they want to, despite everyone else doing things the ‘normal’, better way. It is the addition of the hoarding problem to the OCD (the latter essentially being her character, that everyone has just learnt to live with) that has caused the perfect storm she is in. Chaosqueen: thank you for your reply, you’ve made great points again. I think my friend might have made reference to the fact she’s funding this from state pension when present at the units with the owners/workers there. Either way, they themselves seem aware of it as very early on they actively tried to get her to downsize by offering her help with clearing things out, offering to book her the removal service they use and an array of other help, multiple times across many months in these early stages. i.e. they were clearly concerned by this elderly lady spending so much money, monthly. When they realised there was no end in sight and when over the years they realised increasingly more about her character I guess they gave up.
In regards to your other questions, my friend is currently locked in a battle with her trying to reduce the number of storage units she has because at present, the contents are not being stored in a compact manner at all. There are no cheaper storage unit companies in the area as obviously they’re all close to each other so charge roughly the same and she insists on being able to access the units so they need to be close by, i.e. she would never allow the contents to be stored miles away in a cheaper part of the country.
Yes, she most certainly counts on my friend to swoop in and ‘feed her up’, after days of hardly eating anything. Just a few days ago she confirmed that she had nothing in her fridge or cupboards at all, and did not know what she was going to eat that night. Imagine what it’s like for my friend to hear this of an evening…the constant stress caused to him is unbelievable.
Oddsocks: thank you for your reply. Your words/line in bold have succinctly answered the fundamental question (the sole reason I started the thread) and informed me clearly and concisely that what I am searching for does not exist. Of course it is not nice to read/know, but this is the vital answer that I must accept, saving me searching further for regulations, etc when none exist so thank you for your directness.
Yes she is hardly eating at all and you are correct that she obviously attempts to mininmise all other outgoing including bills.
I will pass on your helpful information about Pension Credit to my friend. Unfortunately I will not be able to update you/the board further about any possible developments in this area as obviously it is regarding someone’s highly personal and sensitive financial information, but rest assured this information will be passed on to my friend who will act on it, should it be possible.
GP: I think this is where the whole situation is heading, as her health is beginning to falter in other ways and the stress of paying out nearly £30,000 is obviously compounding or even causing the decline. I will update the board should any developments occur.
OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder) is distinct from OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). It’s confusing with the names being so similar Quote:Individuals who suffer from obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) often are characterized by their lack of openness and flexibility in not only their daily routines, but also with interpersonal relationships and expectations. The overwhelming preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and control of their lives and relationships means that most types of treatment are going to be, at best, difficult. Treatment options which do not fit within the client’s cognitive schema will likely be quickly rejected rather than attempted.
Sorry, I had meant to type OC PD (once I made the first error I carried it through) but yes I’m aware they’re different things and unsurprised that there’s no way out with this one either ‘treatment are going to be, at best, difficult. Treatment options which do not fit within the client’s cognitive schema will likely be quickly rejected rather than attemptedas it essentially is/has become her character over eight decades. This must be more than just frustrating for everyone involved. Hope you can find a way to at least find some relief. - Preoccupation with order, details, rules
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