Legally liable for husband’s hoard. Help!

[hellobeth]

Hello GG

I have wondered how things were progressing. I’m so sorry you are being held jointly responsible for this situation that is clearly beyond your control. It’s one of those times when the law is an ass! My indignation fed my imagination. I thought, “Right, if I am considered legally responsible then I am legally obliged to take action. I shall order a skip to be delivered to my house and I shall chuck everything from my house I can within my physical ability into it. I will also tip off the local papers as to what I am doing & when. I might even find some friends who will be there with me for support & who might also lend their labour.”

I think it might be an idea to talk to your local MP concerning the situation with a view to addressing the fact that the law is upholding the injustice you & your children are suffering. Ask him how it can be changed; the process involved etc. Also, MP’s do have some clout with councils.

I wish I could be of some help. Always the rebel, I would do both! I will continue to think of what reasonable options might be available.

[Kim2014]

Gawainsgovernes I’m really sorry, I’ve looked and can’t find your backstory other than your pest control thread, so am not sure what your position is exactly, and don’t want to make suggestions that are what you’ve already gone round in circles over, as it sounds complicated, painful and long running enough without being asked have you done this or that.

Your ex-husband does have a human right to live how he pleases as a hoarder, within some environmental health law limits, but he wouldn’t normally have a right to continue to do it in the former marital home while his wife and younger children are left homeless, but this part is about divorce laws regardless of hoarding. So can I ask what the divorce settlement situation is with the house, because surely this is where whatever your legal rights are? (I assume the son who’s living there is 18 or over.)

I don’t think you have any legal rights to get the hoard forcibly cleared while he lives there unless it’s causing a severe environmental hazard, and then only after he has been given a lot of chances to do it himself, and costs would be put onto the property if they couldn’t be recovered any other way. But you probably have a right to legally demand the sale of the house in order to get your share of assets. Obviously from your point of view watching a shared asset deteriorate and be sold for less than it could be if done sensibly,is galling, but without knowing the details it’s the only legal route that comes to mind.

[chaosqueenParticipant]

I’m with Beth. I don’t know about Great Britain, but where I live, as the house is shared property, the stuff in it is techniqually yours, too. So by law you have every right to haul it off. Maybe tell your ex you will do just that…

[Gawainsgoverness]

Thanks for all the answers. My main difficulties with clearing the property are access – the “temporary” accommodation I live in is in a beautiful village with few buses, none of which go near my house, and I have no access to a car in the week. My plan was to stay there for a few days, and do a lot in that time but it is just too bad rught now with the rodents. Your comment on publicity was thought-provoking. As you can imagine I and my children are horribly embarrassed about the state of the house, and mainly for their sakes I have kept it quiet. I am always threatening to put photos on Facebook – and now the children are so sick of their Dad (which is sad) that they are keen to do something. Something has to change though. I don’t think ONE skip will cut it though I have previously contacted the MP, though that was more specifically relating to Social Services and the house, so that could be a plan, thanks.

At one point my ex-husband locked me out of the house and I had to get an occupation order to get back in. This has allocated certain rooms to him, some to me, and then communal areas. His rooms are full, and I have no access to them. Were I to break in to them I would be in breach of the Order and could be taken back to court. The communal areas are dominated by this belongings I have asked him repeatedly to clear these things, but he so far refused. My old solicitor told me that I could remove the things from the hall etc but advised me to put them in the garden. Like there is space! I will recheck with my new solicitor in case he has different ideas. I know at one point I sent a letter to my ex suggesting that if he removed his items from a particular space, I would assume the things left were mine to dispose of as I saw fir. I received a solicitor’s letter telling me I should not presume ownership of his belongings. The financial settlement has not taken place yet – I have been divorced two years, but my previous solicitor did not follow through, let my mediation certificate lapse etc. Hopefully when that happens this nightmare will end.

It would be galling to see the property sold. It has lost more than half its value according to the estate agent, and could possibly leave a debt reamining on the mortgage. I doubt it will be sold in any way other than at auction. I would like to be awarded the house to sort it out and sell it for a proper figure, but I do accept that if the court order a sale this will end. I think it will mess me up financially for the rest of my life, but I will not have this millstone any longer.

The son remaining in the property is 16. He has just left 6th form prematurely. Social services allowed him to remain in the property when they forced us to leave as he had access to things we did not, like washing facilities and cooking facilities. (The Occupation Order awarded us shared use of the kitchen and our own bathroom – the ex stripped the kitchen on the first night and put everything in his locked rooms, and disabled most things in our bathroom, so we had to visit friends to wash!)

Just in a bit of a panic yesterday. Thanks all for the calm advice. Feeling a bit less headless chicken today I will keep you posted with what happens.

[Kim2014]

Gawainsgovernes it sounds like a horribly messy divorce gone wrong and you and he aren’t able to have any sort of civilised conversations about where you go from here, and a very messy situation all round that needs resolving via divorce settlement and solicitors ASAP, if you can’t talk to each other about it.

It’s not possible to suggest much without understanding the fuller back story, especially with social services and who brought them in, but the situation I understand from your post is: as now divorced from each other and with occupation orders, as far as I understand you can’t now legally dispose of his property from communal areas without getting a court order requiring him to clear it first, but can put it outside reasonably protected against short term damage, if there are good enough grounds to and formal warning’s been given.

But surely your priority should be taking him to court for harassment for disabling the bathroom, to be ordered to fix it or lose his occupation rights?

[chaosqueenParticipant]

This gets worse with every bit of information. So, no, you can’t haul his stuff away. But neither should be allowed to strip the kitchen in disable your bathroom. Sorry. I have absolutely nothing that could be of help for you except my sincere hope that somebody else has a way to help you!

[Gawainsgoverness]

Yes, messy divorce gone horribly wrong.

Well. I did have a mediation appointment booked for yesterday, but the other party cancelled at the last minute. Sigh. Another delaying tactic. While we are technically homeless my ex is sitting pretty, and as he is unlikely to be awarded the house his best outcome is to do nothing but hang on in there.

Social Services first became involved about four years ago. At that time two of my children were living there, which was not my choice. I was supported by a local group to help with my housing needs. When they became aware of the state of the house they insisted on a referral to SS, as they felt that the hazards of the home were such that if anything were to happen in the house they would be guilty of corporate manslaughter. The fire service did a safety check, and also made a referral describing the house as “a tragedy waiting to happen”. As you can imagine I was horrified that my children were living in such conditions. However despite the fact that two official bodies made the referrals to the SS my ex managed to convince them that all was well, and that the referrals were just me using them to get custody. Thanks to me wanting to be nice to my then still-husband he had lots of time to do just enough to get away with it(when the fire service saw it it was almost impossible to even enter the house) Of course, once they left everything went back to normal. The SS did eventually take action, and involved the Housing Enforcement Team, leading to the Hazard Awareness Notice. Ironically that case was closed because I won the court order to move back in, which the SS felt would change things.

So I and my children moved in. Within a week the SS arrived. To investigate me for child abuse, as reported by my my ex. Needless to say this malicious referral was dismissed very quickly. However that led to concern about our conditions and we were forced to leave or risk the children going into care. I still find it infuriating and incredible that one man can make our home unsafe for us, but as long as we avoid our own home he can keep doing it. How is that right?

Anyway, my solicitor should have taken it to court, and kept saying that she was. Except she didn’t. I went to mediation,and the ex promised to sort things out so that we could move back in. He didn’t, we couldn’t and the solicitor let the mediation certificate lapse. So here I am, attempting mediation again. Frustratingly my new solicitor feels that the length of time since all this has happened now makes it too late to return to court with the order. Otherwise he would have done! Grrr!

Anyway, positively, the Pest Control Team are visiting the house (and in my area at least do not charge for removal of mice, rats, bedbugs and cockroaches. Housing Enforcement have told me to contact the SS again stating their involvement (I have no faith in them at all at this point, or in anybody really) So we will see what happens. I am going to clarify the situation re removal of stuff with my solicitor, and see how it all goes.

thanks for the support

[chaosqueenParticipant]

Hey. least I can do is listen! I am a good listener I think. Playing nice, doesn’t always pay off unfortunately. I agree with you. It should not be okay by law to just have you out of the house and things are considered taken care off. I hope his stalling tactics will be sen us such this time. I hope mediation goes better this time.

[hellobeth]

Dear GG,

What a heart rending situation It’s so good to have you back Kim as (unfortunately) you know so much about the legal side of things. Queenie my fantasy was born of frustration & anger :x wasn’t meant to be a plan of action :lol: though if keeping things good for the kids re: dad has broken down maybe going public now might work for you GG.

I had an acrimonious divorce too which wasn’t good for the children so I cut my losses and said goodbye to £25,000 so as to move on & settle the kids into a secure living arrangement. Making the decision to forgo your assets is so hard but we need to see what it is costing us in terms of wellness. I also had a rubbish solicitor! I think I did the right thing by them but it was the beginning of my own hoarding problem. :roll:

Oh, I do hope your situation can reach a resolution soon. Best wishes.

[Gawainsgoverness]

Thanks all. Yes, I appreciate Kim’s clear and calm legal advice too. I have recently come to a decision that enough is enough, and have set a time limit on how long I am prepared to struggle, and at the end of that period I will walk away. Owing to rubbish solicitors I haven’t quite explored every option yet – the financial settlement should finalise everything – it is just a pity that legal delays have left us tied to this mess (literally) for so long.So, the end of the year is my cut-off point.

I might have given up sooner had I been in a better financial position, but I really need to secure my children a home. It is a great shame that their dad is so tied up with both hating me and his hoarding that they are coming in a poor third. Unfortunately when we initially separated he took his legal advice from a retired solicitor, who told him to “rubbish me”. He has well and truly done that (I have been accused of child abuse, attempted murder, alcoholism and nymphomania – if only my life were so much fun ) and while I don’t think his natural personality required much prompting to do that, it was incredibly irresponsible of that solicitor to advise a man with children to behave like that.

I do appreciate the ears, and I really look forward to the day I can post my own hoarding clear-up story or at least say Phew, its over.

[chaosqueenParticipant]

I still think it would have been a great plan *sigh*

[hellobeth]

*sigh* me too!

[Gawainsgoverness]

I feel as if I am going mad here. I have been chasing advice (wow my solicitor was spectacularly unhelpful) and I am stuck!

Social Services have dismissed the case without even a home visit (yet malicious referrals by my ex got me an instant visit!)

So, it seems all I can do with his stuff is put it in the garden, with due warning, and as the garden itself is pretty full and a major problem already that doesn’t seem like a great plan. And the notice I would need to give would trigger something from him, probably a solicitor’s letter at least, ordering me not to.

I can not clear the areas allotted to him under the Occupation order as 1. They are locked, and 2. I would be in breach of the Order and I can imagine the ex would be back in court like a shot!

So, if I don’t move the stuff I could be prosecuted, and yet I can’t move the stuff for similar reasons. ????

It has been suggested to me that I should take the Occupation Order back to court and do it myself. My previous solicitor kept saying she was taking the Order back for a variation, but didn’t. Eventually she said we didn’t have enough. I find that difficult to believe that someone who has made the house impossible to live in could get away with that, but she claimed that technically he had allowed me into the house, and kitchen etc, and thus there was no breach. I found this hard to take, as in court we were told we both had to behave or risk the Order being overturned – examples were given where someone had been found in breach for playing Wagner loudly at odd hours. Sounds very minor to me. My new solicitor feels that the length of time since it all happened is against me, although he would have taken it back otherwise (!) and said if I wanted to do that I should go back to my former solicitor. (who wasn’t doing it anyway… another of my going round in circles kind of thing, sigh)

Any thoughts on this anyone? My thoughts are drifting towards the MP and the press with this now And the kids have given me their blessing to do so.

[chaosqueenParticipant]

Forgive me, but if the kitchen is a communal area and he has if I understood correctly moved the kitchen furniture out, that should be considered a breach. Right? Or am I not understanding correctly. Who do you turn to when there is a breach of the occupation order?

Maybe you need to find the solicitor guy who went after the person playing Wagner too loud?

A solicitor who said he won’t do anything obviously is of no help.

Can you file a complaint against social services for not properly taking care of your case? Would that do any good?

As usual I am just thinking out loud.

Good luck!

[Kim2014]

I came in for a lunch break to update from too tired last night, but couldn’t ignore your post. I will be back a lot later, but I must push on here.

These are thoughts and opinions, because you’re asking. I’m not legally qualified, but do have experience of a few things, but please take nothing I say without checking with someone who is legally qualified, and if you don’t like anything please say wont you, because I’m trying to help, but sometimes it can come over wrong as I can come over a bit matter of fact about things.

Closing the case: I’m not sure if you understand social services different roles, or if I’m missing some part of the story, I’m guessing some things, but they’re based on a reasonable amount of knowledge of the sytems and proceedures, just possibly not enough of your backstory. The SS ‘case’ is effectively against you,I’d be glad it’s closed.

They came straight round for the children’s fathers complaint because he almost certainly accused you of direct neglect or abuse etc which brings a fast child protection team response. It’s very different from complaints about your living conditions and indirect safeguarding.

Your living situation and post-divorce mess is horrible, (and I feel for you) and a social worker could write reports etc to help at court, but it’s only a child protection issue if you are wilfully failing to safeguard your children adequately and not dealing appropriately with it, which is why they allowed the children to remain with you when you agreed to not carry on making them live without adequate facilities.

The fact someone else caused it, is neither here nor there I’m afraid, it was down to you as a mum to deal with what he’d done straight away and not let it lapse (I’m so not judging you, I know life is more complicated, I’m just saying what the rules say about these things) and live like that.

If I have my head around the back story to this, (and I might not) social services aren’t the right people to be dealing with your problems unless you want help in finding temporary accomodation. (which I think you already have?)

You may not feel this right now, but it’s actually good that social services have closed your case, as there’s nothing much they can do to help you get what you want (unless I misunderstand what that is) in this situation the way it’s evolved, and a lot they can do to cause great stress and distress to you and all your children, and they could easily force you to choose between them, and you getting a fair divorce assets deal. If they’ve closed the case, they’re accepting your ability as a mum to do the right thing for them, without being forced to, and you’re now free to concentrate on the real problems.

If I understand everything, would you agree the issues you need to focus on are:

Make sure the communal areas of the house are safe enough to not trap people in a fire etc, so you and the younger two can safely occupy.

Make sure you have a working bathroom and kitchen, so you and the younger two can legally occupy.

Ensure rodents aren’t a major problem, so you and the younger two can hygienically occupy.

Alleviate what must be a terrible situation for your poor 16 year old caught between his parents. Possibly get him back into education fast, before his future is changed by it all? (which parent is he wanting to live with in the future?)

Temporarily live there while you wait for your divorce settlement, making sure the situation doesn’t at least get worse.

Make sure environmental health fully understands what you personally can and can’t do legally regarding any breach of EH law, and make sure you have it all on paper. Ask what things you can do that don’t involve clearing items owned by him, or areas legally allocated to him. Ie clearing overgrown areas around what stuff he has in the garden, cutting back overhanging trees etc, according to what the notice requires to be done.* If you do get taken to court it’s very unlikely a judge is going to fine you if you have taken this approach. (when it comes to asset division it will also help you, if a charge has been put on the house from an enforced council clean up)

Try and convince your ex husband of the wisdom of you both making the house saleable for the highest possible price.

If that’s not possible, move things forward asap to get assets divided before they further devalue and charges are put on them.

Possibly seek a variation order (I say possibly as it could make you more liable without making life much better, depending what you went after, to what end, and what you actually got)

If I don’t have this possible list right or there are other priorities, or they should be in a different order please say, and if possible, make your own list. If it’s correct then it’s about the next steps to achieve these things.

I’m not sure why you would want or need to clear the areas allocated to your ex husband at this moment? Can you explain why (apart from for sale of house) if I’ve missed something regarding EH?

*It would help to know what the notice states the nature of the hazard and deficiency is, what remedial action is required, by when, and their official reasons for serving it, and why they feel it to be appropriate. (all this should be on the notice)

MP and press: What would you be asking your MP to do exactly? They could be useful to help you, but I wouldn’t use them until I had a clear action plan of what I wanted, and if I was legally entitled to it first, (otherwise it’s lots of froth but not much else) and how my MP could be used to get it for me. I also wouldn’t be using the press, facebook etc, to name and shame, as publicity will just help seriously devalue your property further, and again to me, those things could be useful for more targeted action later.

Can I ask if your ex husband knows and accepts he is hoarder, and if it was part of the divorce petition?

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