Compassionate Discourse

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

Thank you for your post and kind welcome, blossum17.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about researchers needing to focus on other areas of the spectrum. Recently, I spoke to a prominent researcher. When he asked me to rate my clutter situation, he said, “That is just under what we consider ‘clinical.'” But I know my thought processes are clinical hoarding. My problem is not simply disorganization. I can feel that it is much more complicated than that.

Funny how we feel like we need to convince others that we truly have a problem, isn’t it?? To them, we seem to have things together all right. But we know what’s going on inside our heads, and it’s a constant battle.

The only reason my home isn’t completely overtaken is because I devote an incredible amount of time to trying to keep the hoard at bay. My misfortune of being unemployed is what affords me the time. If I had to be out at a job all day, I hate to imagine what my place would look like because it takes me so long to accomplish so little.

But being out of work is another worry for me ** sigh **

Studies show incredibly high recidivism, so your comment about Maintenance needing attention is spot on! I will be in contact with the researcher again when their semester resumes and will make it a point to bring up the topic of Maintenance. We’ll see what he says….

[chaosqueenParticipant]

ShedTheShame wrote:

Studies show incredibly high recidivism,

*Sigh* I did NOT want to hear that.

I think this is why it is so important to deal with acquiring first. The first real difference I made in my hoarding was when I was aware how, where and when I acquire new things. It seemed that no matter what I did I could never get the hoard under control. Now that I have stopped things from coming in, I feel I do a lot less about keeping it under control and yet, it is shrinking. Changing my thinking on acquiring and then on keeping and last but not least on HOW to part with things is what worked best for me.

One more question for you. Do you think being out of work also gives you more time to add to the hoard?

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

chaosqueen wrote:

ShedTheShame wrote:

Studies show incredibly high recidivism,

*Sigh* I did NOT want to hear that.

Oh, chaosqueen… please forgive me if I discouraged you in any way. That certainly wasn’t my intent. First, please let me say how much I admire and respect all the insightful posts on this message board. Truly! I couldn’t believe my good fortune when I found this site because I have read books & books on hoarding, I attended a professional conference on hoarding… and the insights I’ve read here are often beyond what I’ve heard from researchers and experts.

Not to say that researchers and experts don’t know what they’re doing, but they will forever be on the outside looking in. What everyone here shares is from the INSIDE.

This is precisely why I’m trying to encourage compassionate discourse about hoarding. What we experience, what we’ve learned, what we struggle with — all of this needs to be part of the search for more answers. We need to share it not only amongst “ourselves,” but also with “outsiders.”

Right now I’m trying to put together a proposal for a presentation at an upcoming conference. When I attended the conference in 2014, I felt the emotional struggles of this disorder went unaddressed. Hoping that the decision makers will see the value in having “one of us” speak to give a perspective from the “inside.”

I only brought up the high recidivism rate to echo blossom17’s very valid point about the need for more research on Maintenance strategies. (I hope it’ll happen in my lifetime, too!)

chaosqueen wrote:

I think this is why it is so important to deal with acquiring first…. Changing my thinking on acquiring and then on keeping and last but not least on HOW to part with things is what worked best for me.

Agree with you 100 percent! It’s like being in a boat with a hole in it. We can’t just focus on bailing the water out; we have to figure out how to stop up the hole so water doesn’t keep rushing in. I also have worked diligently to minimize my acquisitions. Every now and then I slip, but more often than not — it actually makes my stomach turn to think about bringing home a bag full of things.

Do you have the store Bed Bath & Beyond in UK? Once in a while I stop in to BB&B for necessities, and I now get uncomfortable while I’m there. They have products from floor to ceiling — most of which people really don’t need. I always find myself having to navigate through not-so-wide aisles around either people and their gigantic shopping carts or wall-to-wall products. We live in a time of excessive consumerism, which doesn’t help us fight the hoard.

chaosqueen wrote:

Do you think being out of work also gives you more time to add to the hoard?

I’m happy to say that I don’t (At least not right now!) Like you, I have been able to significantly limit things coming in. Sadly, that has meant giving up some hobbies I truly love. As much as I miss the joy I get from doing those activities, I know I have to get my living situation in better shape or else face more serious consequences.

I really try to resist the urge to look at catalogs of nice things, like pretty clothes and accessories or lovely home decor. Even peeking at those images triggers the desire to have those things. No window shopping, either I tell myself, “Work on getting rid of this old stuff that’s taking up valuable space in your home, your mind, and your life. Then we can consider a reward of something new and nice “

While I’ve gotten acquiring under decent control, discarding is my biggest challenge. UGH. I beat myself up every time I look at the many things that have literally been sitting in the exact same spot for YEARS — and yet I can’t get myself to toss them out. WHY????? :x The researcher I mentioned before… this is actually the aspect of hoarding he and his students are looking into.

RIght now in the US everyone is obsessed with the Powerball being the largest jackpot in world history. All over the radio they have people saying what they would do with the money if they won… talking about what they would buy. If I had the good fortune of a windfall, instead of buying I would be discarding. It’s as if I need the certainty of knowing I will always have the resources to buy these items again in the future if I need to — and then I would be able to let most of them go. Weird???

Woah. I’ve written far more than I had planned! My thanks to everyone here. You give me hope & inspiration.

Fight the good fight,

ShedTheShame

[chaosqueenParticipant]

No worries Share, is it okay to skip the Shame? I knew about recidivism. IF I want to deal with my hoarding I have to deal with the ugly facts, or I won’t ever get out of this. In fact, my main question (feel free to pass it on to research) over the last 2 years since I’ve been aware what my problem is was:”Can hoarding be cured, or is it more like alcoholism, even though you are a “cleared” hoarder you are still a hoarder?”

It seems to be a fact that a hoard that was cleared by force (outside intervention) is back bigger and worse in just a few months or even less. SO the question is WHY the high number of recidivism? Are there different reasons? This is my take on it. I think the main issues for recidivism are:

– wrong approach when clearing

– not dealing with the reasons for hoarding (dealing with the symptom instead of the cause)

– no strategy for maintenance

-considering oneself “save” and restarting acquiring

I have been to BB&B and they make me want to get towels in all the colors of the rainbow. But just like you said, it feels like a very pretty warehouse and you wonder what will happen if those pillows come cascading down on you….

Congratulatiosn on stopping the acquiring process. Why can’t you throw the things out? For me it is “it might still be useful” and I can’t bare the thought of throwing out something useful. I have noticed that I am “hoarding by proxy” these days. My neighbour remodeled the apartment and asked me if I wanted some of the furniture. 2 years ago, I would have taken it, because I “might know someone who could use it” these days I told them I might know someone who might need it, so THEY are keeping it” hahaha :twisted: I am terrible, I know!

For me a major trigger is “something being useful” for many on the board a trigger seems to be keeping everything that would cost money to re-acquire in case of need.Another motivator is “Save for a special occasion”. Once we see what our motivator is, we can start dealing with it.

I think maintenance is a very important factor. What has worked best for me seems a similar approach to the way Nana is doing things. Have routines, focus on keeping reclaimed areas neat and tidy, even if that slows down the progress in hoarded areas. I think it is worth it because you will have a daily sense of accomplishment and you can prove to yourself that you can do it in one room which gives you the hope that you can do it in 2.

I had a “yes I am a hoarder” moment today, but I’ll spare you the details!

Today’s challenge is clean up the hall. Wish me luck!

[DrowninginToys]

I already see myself slipping up- missing things which are long gone, thinking about re-purchasing, I’m trying to shake it off & keep moving forward

Chaosqueen funny you are clearing your hall today- me too! got someone coming to measure for a hall carpet (in about an hour) we actually have had a set of bare stairs in our house for almost 2 years! of course I’m now thinking I need to clean the bathroom & tidy up all the bedrooms as they all lead off the hall argh! desperately hoping he doesn’t need in my livingroom as it is currently a dumping ground & stinks of dog sick thanks to the furriest member of our family who decided to throw up just as I was thinking about jumping in the shower before the baby woke up! :oops:

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

Hi, chaosqueen —

Feel free to abbreviate… someone else addresses me as “STS.”

Yes, we have to face the reality of our situations. In all that I’ve read and heard, I haven’t come across a situation where hoarding was “cured” and have come to accept that this is something I will need to work on for the rest of my life. Researchers talk about managing hoarding rather than curing it.

Forced clear outs aren’t effective because the hoarder’s thought processes, habits and behaviors haven’t been modified. The fact that they feel completely violated by the forced clear out likely contributes to their hoard returning even bigger and faster.

chaosqueen wrote:

SO the question is WHY the high number of recidivism? Are there different reasons? This is my take on it. I think the main issues for recidivism are:

– wrong approach when clearing

– not dealing with the reasons for hoarding (dealing with the symptom instead of the cause)

– no strategy for maintenance

-considering oneself “save” and restarting acquiring

I would agree with you on all points. Think about how difficult it is for the average person to adopt any new habit. Exercising regularly, quitting smoking… it’s HARD! Compulsive hoarding runs very deep and is incredibly tenacious, as we’ve all experienced. Even when we desperately want to clear out our homes — we still find ourselves struggling to make progress.

There are many with hoarding problems who are still in denial. I don’t know how one can improve the situation if they haven’t yet acknowledged a problem. At least we’re aware of what we’re up against so we can try to fight it.

It’s not easy for an alcoholic to stay sober. It helps if they avoid situations where alcohol is present. But how can we avoid situations where “stuff” is present? It’s everywhere. It finds us even when we don’t want it, like junk mail.

chaosqueen wrote:

Congratulatiosn on stopping the acquiring process. Why can’t you throw the things out? For me it is “it might still be useful” and I can’t bare the thought of throwing out something useful.

I haven’t completely stopped acquiring, but I certainly have limited it a lot.

I share the “it might still be useful” trap. As well as the, “I spent good money on this” trap. Information hoarding is a problem for me, hence the difficulty getting rid of paper clutter. “If my tax return gets audited, I’ll need to provide these documents.” Scanning documents into my computer has helped, but it’s very time consuming.

My worries about the environment are also a big obstacle to throwing out things. I’ve always been environmentally conscious. 25 years ago I was already sewing reusable canvas shopping bags! I try to remind myself, “Once an item exists, it’s going to end up in a landfill at some point. Saving it in my home isn’t going to save it from a landfill.” But it’s still difficult.

For a while I was being sent a magazine subscription I had never ordered. Tried asking the subscription house to cancel it; they told me, “We can’t. But it’s FREE, so don’t worry about it.” A non-hoarder would toss the magazines in the recycling or even the trash. Me… I feel like someone should read it before it ends up in a bin. So I worry about taking it to a nail salon where others might make use of it. But then that becomes a full-time job, finding homes for all these things.

What I just described is what the researcher and his students are calling “material scrupulosity.” So far they have identified two branches: (1) ethical concern – What am I doing to the world? and (2) concern with the feelings of the objects (anthropomorphism)

chaosqueen wrote:

What has worked best for me seems a similar approach to the way Nana is doing things. Have routines, focus on keeping reclaimed areas neat and tidy, even if that slows down the progress in hoarded areas. I think it is worth it because you will have a daily sense of accomplishment and you can prove to yourself that you can do it in one room which gives you the hope that you can do it in 2.

Absolutely! Routines and healthy habits are critical. I’m beginning to think that consistency is more important for me than quantity. If I at least do something small every day, it keeps me in a healthier mindset and on the right track. By contrast, I could do a more significant clean out — but if I don’t continue with healthy habits even on a small scale, it’s much harder to get back on the wagon.

Sorry for the long post again! I really appreciate the insightful dialogue; it’s helpful for us as individuals, as well as for the overall understanding of hoarding issues.

Rooting for you with your hall clean up. You too, DrowninginToys

STS

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

Keep forgetting to ask, but has anyone tried this woman’s methods? She’s in the UK.

http://www.clutterclearing.net” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.clutterclearing.net

Aside from her tools for purchase, she also has a youtube channel: ClutterClearing. Thought this video of hers on how to reduce accumulation was good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56tlUeZY4uE” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56tlUeZY4uE

(Not sure if I should post this here or on the Currently De-Hoarding? thread)

[chaosqueenParticipant]

Drowing in Toys, would you midn sharing what you would like to repurchase?

I like STS so I think I will stick with that!

material scrupulosity Oh my. I have trouble even pronouncing that,. I think I am heavily leaning to the ethical branch! Because if I would worry how my books feel about sitting on a shelf in the attic I would go and get them to a place where someone might read them!

I have a question. I know I saw it somewhere but I forgot, with the clutter images. When do they start to consider it hoarding?

IT is gray and rainy here and I am suffering from brain fog. I feel like I never really woke up this morning. Forgive me if I don’t make sens.

[DrowninginToys]

Of course, a few years ago I copied all my music from CDs on to a hard drive & got rid of all the discs. this week I attempted to retrieve some of it-I have upgraded my laptop since & it was a nightmare, I thought maybe as I missed certain music I should go back & buy the discs again but thankfully I got it working & the notion has passed. Been in a bad mood this week & it’s not getting any better haha

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

chaosqueen wrote:

I would worry how my books feel about sitting on a shelf in the attic I would go and get them to a place where someone might read them!

Are you concerned with the feelings of the books? As if they’re lonely in the attic? This might fall in the anthropomorphism branch, more so than ethical concern. I struggle more with ethical concern, wanting to re-home books I no longer need instead of tossing them in a landfill.

chaosqueen wrote:

the clutter images. When do they start to consider it hoarding?

http://www.oxfordclinicalpsych.com/view/10.1093/med:psych/9780199334940.001.0001/med-9780199334940-interactive-pdf-004.pdf” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.oxfordclinicalpsych.com/view/10.1093/med:psych/9780199334940.001.0001/med-9780199334940-interactive-pdf-004.pdf

“A rating of 4 or higher represents clinically significant clutter characteristic of hoarding disorder.”

For me, I kind of disagree with the a rating number determining whether or not it’s clinical. Right now I fall around the “3” zone, but that’s mainly because I’ve been putting forth so much time and effort to fighting the hoard.

While I don’t have as many clothes piles as they depict in the scale, I have random things in stacked cardboard boxes that have been sitting in the same random place for a decade. Some of the cardboard boxes themselves are 20+ years old! Papers, receipts, financial statements randomly strewn throughout my house…

Basically, there is stuff all along the perimeter of every room and then additional items creep towards the center of the room. So tired of never being able to easily access a closet… always have to move things from one place to another to get to what I need. ** sigh **

My physical surroundings may not be a “4 or higher,” but I know my thought processes and mind clutter are! If I didn’t have this much time to try to keep things at bay, I could see my rating number easily going higher.

DrowninginToys wrote:

a few years ago I copied all my music from CDs on to a hard drive & got rid of all the discs. this week I attempted to retrieve some of it-I have upgraded my laptop since & it was a nightmare

I also copied my CDs onto my computer and put the CDs in a garage sale. When I read what happened to you, I immediately started worrying about that happening to me in the future! Glad you got things working and are no longer thinking about repurchasing CDs

[chaosqueenParticipant]

the first quote is an “if” short STS I don’t give a rats about my books feelings. I don’t even think they have any! Lucky me. Now THAT would make it really hard. Like you I want to save them from the landfill. SO when I did have 100 books to dispose off that NOBODY wanted. Yes, I called around and tried to donate them, I put them into the recycling bin, telling myself they will be used to make new books. That made it a little easier.

Thank you for the clutter images. I am obviously not a hoarder, either!

One word that you used struck me. “age” A year ago I was at my parents house. MY mom had sorted out bank records to be shredded. I wrote about this in detail on my blog but let is suffice to say that the oldest bank records I came across were 42 years old and it took me more than 24 hours to get permission to shred them. Never mind my dad getting all upset with me for destroying precious memorabilia. If you keep bank records that are 42 years old you have a problem. You really do.

Items boxed up for years? Stacked in the same spot? Yup that’s me. Yup, I have a problem.

Personally I think I am a special sub type hoarder. I was trained to be a hoarder. This is why I think there might be hope for me. My hoarding wasn’t triggered. I was taught “frugal living”, like Kat. Buying in bulk and storing for “bad times” was considered a virtue and smart. So now when I weed things out it feels like I am sabotaging my own safe future. I have very little emotional attachment to my things. I can even get rid of emotional stuff like baby clothes if somebody needs it. For me it is all about the perceived value of something. I am learning to understand that keeping track of all these things and working through them is wasting my valuable time. A resource that can’t be regained. I still can’t just throw it out, but I have learned to trust my husband. If he says it’s trash I believe him and he can toss it without me inspecting it first, and in most of the cases I let the kids make their own decision, whether it is to keep or to throw out. Its hard, but I am getting better.

Drowning in Toys I am very happy you didn’t have to re-buy!

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

chaosqueen wrote:

the first quote is an “if” short STS I don’t give a rats about my books feelings. I don’t even think they have any! Lucky me. Now THAT would make it really hard.

Ahh, sorry I misunderstood!

chaosqueen wrote:

I was trained to be a hoarder. This is why I think there might be hope for me. My hoarding wasn’t triggered.

I’m rooting for you! I would say I had mild hoarding tendencies to begin with, but then trauma kicked it into high gear

It’s great that you’re learning to understand how all the stuff robs you of your valuable, irreplaceable time. I understand that for myself in theory, but still have difficulty letting go Also great that you trust your husband to make decisions! All I’ve got are two cats, and they’re pretty useless when it comes to helping me discard…

[Frog in the well]

Going off at a tangent probably

I keep being drawn to the title “compassionate discourse”

I suppose I look at it and try to remind myself to be compassionate with myself.

I have such anger at at myself, maybe in some way hoarding and clutter gave a “safe” reason for the negative thinking

Sorry like an overstretched elastic band at the moment, need to let the tension go, :roll:

[ShedTheShameParticipant]

Frog in the well wrote:

I keep being drawn to the title “compassionate discourse”

I suppose I look at it and try to remind myself to be compassionate with myself.

I’m happy to hear you’re drawn to the phrase, because compassionate discourse is what is needed! Not just among those who struggle with this disorder — but with the public, as well.

When the general public labels compulsive hoarders with such negative terms, we not only feel the sting of it… we may even buy into it and see ourselves as somehow less than and unworthy of being loved and accepted.

We’re so afraid we won’t be liked if people knew our true selves that we hide in shame. I’m determined to fight this :!:

Do be compassionate with yourself, Frog

[blossum17]

Hello All!

The more we start & engage others in a compassionate discourse the easier it will become over time to speak of these things that are difficult, hurtful, shaming. Even though this disorder receives a lot of attention what matters is the discussions we have among ourselves. This is where healing, insight, & inspiration to battle on takes place.

It’s not easy to share this experience with many people but if each of us can find & trust 1 or 2 people to have the discourse with then things will change. Albeit slowly but they will. And eventually researchers will catch up to us & hopefully at that time we will be ready for them & they will be able to handle what we have to say whether it reflects in their particular research or not

best

blossum17

[Author]

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